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Subscribe to RSSFor helicopter teams, chasing smugglers along the Rio Grande in South Texas is virtually a daily occurrence. Pilots say they've seen the Mexican traffickers pushing larger amounts of illicit drugs into the United States over the last few years. NBC's Mark Potter reports.
EDINBURG, Texas – While flying an afternoon patrol along the twists and turns of the Rio Grande, Lt. Johnny Prince, a veteran pilot for the Texas Department of Public Safety, spotted something suspicious: "Look here, we got a raft, a raft right here."
Below him, in the middle of the river which separates Mexico from the United States was a group of men frantically paddling back to the southern riverbank, their attempt to reach the American side thwarted by the helicopter patrol.
Prince said he suspected the men were a team of drug cartel scouts who were planning to search the U.S. side of the river to make sure there were no law enforcement officers nearby. If they determined the area was clear, he explained, they would then signal others to sneak a load of narcotics across the river in a raft.
Mike Avila, the helicopter's tactical flight officer, said that this was happening near an area nicknamed "Smugglers' Alley," because of all the illicit activity here. Well-worn trails and a narrowing of the river have made this area a favorite for Mexican drug traffickers.
‘That car's loaded to the gills’
Earlier that same day, Prince and Avila found themselves flying inland in hot pursuit of two vehicles –a car and a truck –loaded with Mexican marijuana. As the vehicles sped through city streets on the American side of the river, Avila trained the helicopter’s high-powered camera on the fleeing smugglers and Prince called out their locations by radio to pursuing troopers on the ground.
Mark Potter / NBC News
Lt. Johnny Prince, the pilot on the right, and Mike Avila, the tactical flight officer on the left, patrol the Rio Grande in a helicopter looking for drug smugglers.
One of the drivers sped along the wrong side of the road, then he raced through an intersection, almost striking two cars with his pickup truck. "Oh no, oh no," groaned Prince. Avila described another close call as the driver raced through a school zone before crashing into a building: "He nearly struck two school buses."
In both cases, the drivers – a man and a woman – were apprehended and troopers seized loads of marijuana from both their vehicles. Even from the sky, the pilots could see that one of the cars was carrying a lot of drug bundles. "That car's loaded to the gills," said Prince.
Increased aggression along a ‘porous’ border
For the helicopter teams, chasing smugglers along the Rio Grande in South Texas is virtually a daily occurrence. Pilots say they've seen the Mexican traffickers pushing larger amounts of illicit drugs into the United States over the last few years and have watched them become more menacing toward law enforcement officers and U.S. citizens.
"I've been working along the border for 14 years and in those 14 years I've seen the level of aggression increase exponentially. The sheer volume of narcotics that's being pumped into our border has risen," said Capt. Stacy Holland, of the Texas Department of Public Safety Aircraft Section.
It's not unusual, Holland said, for smugglers to take only a couple of minutes to move more than a ton of marijuana across the river, up the U.S. side of the riverbank and into a vehicle which then heads north. "Our border is very open, our border is very porous," he said.
The pilots said they are convinced traffickers are much more likely now than they were a few years ago to confront U.S. law enforcement officials. "We have video of them carrying AK-47's and side arms during these operations and they are not afraid to use them," said Holland.
While flying in his helicopter, Prince has more than once been eye to eye with smugglers on the ground upset with his presence above. "I've seen guns pointed at me, long guns. I've seen rocks thrown at us. One of the things they do is use sling shots with ball bearings in them," he said. "A ball bearing with a good slingshot can do damage to this helicopter and that's been done."
Another serious concern is for the safety of Texas troopers and U.S. Border Patrol agents who have to tangle with the traffickers on the ground. A particularly dangerous scenario involves agents coming upon a large group of smugglers loading a car with illegal drugs on the U.S. side of the Rio Grande.
"Usually there's only one or two officers that first arrive at the particular vehicle on the river and they are encountering 15 or 20 cartel members," said Prince. "On the other side, you will see another 10 to 15 cartel members, and if you see them armed they are going to be trying to cover the guys on the U.S. side."
Splashdowns
A highly unusual technique used by Mexican smugglers to elude capture by American authorities involves them driving trucks loaded with drugs into the waters of the Rio Grande. It happens after Border Patrol agents or Texas troopers spot a drug-laden vehicle on the U.S. side of the river and give chase.
If the smugglers can't elude their pursuers – either by speeding up or by throwing spikes into the road to flatten the tires of the officers behind they – they will then head back to the same spot along the river where traffickers brought the drugs ashore after floating them across from Mexico.
"If the loads get compromised, they will drive around in the United States, in Texas here, until they get their recovery teams set up on the river, to return the drugs back to Mexico," said Prince.
The Texas Department of Public Safety has shot numerous helicopter videos of Mexican smugglers paddling over to the American side of the river to await the arrival of the truck racing toward them. When the truck reaches the riverbank, it keeps going – right into the water.
Texas Dept. Of Public Safety / Texas Dept. of Public Safety
Photo taken of a "splashdown" taken by the Texas Department of Public Safety. Drug smugglers drove their truck back into the Rio Grande river to escape U.S. law enforcement.
"Bam! All units, we have a splashdown, a splashdown in the river," a pilot on one of the videos can be heard transmitting on the radio.
Before the truck sinks, the driver climbs out through the window and the recovery teams move quickly to save as much of the drug load as possible, throwing the tightly-wrapped bales into rafts.
"Ok, we've got rafts in the river, a bunch of people on the U.S. side; that thing is loaded," said a pilot watching from above in one video. "Suspects are in the water, trying to unload the vehicle," said another pilot hovering over a different scene.
As soon as the rafts are filled with off-loaded drugs, the smugglers paddle back to the Mexican side of the river where they are safe from arrest by American authorities. Sometimes, the traffickers are so brazen they will make obscene hand gestures toward U.S. agents watching from across the river, or from above in helicopters.
The agents' only recourse at that moment is to notify Mexican authorities and hope they arrive in time to apprehend the smugglers. Or, they can hope to catch the loads of drugs next time, when inevitably they are floated back across the Rio Grande during another smuggling attempt – sometimes on the very same day the drugs are recovered after a splashdown.
George Grayson, a professor at William and Mary, has written several books about the Mexican drug violence. He says many Americans and Mexicans themselves are ignoring the life-threatening danger of narcotraffic at the border.
No end in sight
The pilots who routinely fly along the Rio Grande said they see nothing that would suggest there is any let up in the amount of smuggling along the river. In fact, they predict increased violence on U.S. soil.
"You get a lot more home invasions, a lot of crook on crook crimes, a lot of kidnappings, the cartels coming over here maybe trying to collect money and then retreating back over to Mexico," said Holland.
Texas newspapers have reported recently on cartel shoot-outs in Houston and McAllen, the wounding of a deputy, the arrests of alleged cartel leaders in the Rio Grande Valley and the seizure of cartel property in the U.S.—along with the almost daily news of major drug seizures.
Statements by the Obama Administration and by some local officials that the U.S.-Mexican border is safer than ever are derided by many of the pilots.
"Our citizens in our border towns are caught in the crossfire, and I mean that in the most literal sense sometimes," said Holland. "It's important that our citizens, not only in the state (of Texas), but in the United States are aware of how porous our border is and what the threats are, and could be."
More coverage from Mark Potter: Along Mexican border, US ranchers say they live in fear
See more of Mark Potter's reporting on NBC's Nightly News with Brian Williams Tuesday evening.
Leave a Comment:
As your president, I will protect you from all chemically induced forms of happiness. In return, I will provide DVD box sets of "Full House" and "Family Matters" to every man,woman, and child. Campaign contributors will also get to meet Bob Sagot in person.
This is a losing battle. America should be exporting Marijauna, not importing it from Mexico. $$$
Many highly regarded institutes and commissions who have extensively researched the "war on drugs" have said it is a complete and utter failure and the prohibition needs to be ended.
There is far more drug use happening under the war on drugs than there was prior to the war on drugs. The drug cartels have seen to that.
You can no more keep drugs out of the US than you could keep air out of the US.
All drugs need to be decriminalized. All of them. And the only thing we should be dealing with at all is treating those who get themselves PHYSICALLY-addicted to hard-drugs.
And instead of putting these people in prisons where they learn to actually become REAL criminals, we treat them through the medical and mental health system.
The US has completely and utterly failed to learn the lessons of the 1930's Prohibition. That prohibition as well failed. Just like now there was actually more alcohol being consumed under the prohibition than without it.
Right now we are talking about trying to find ways to save money and raise revenues in our country. And here we have a completely failed program called the "war on drugs" that was responsible for massive government bureaucracies at the federal, state and local levels of government.
The war on drugs has cost the taxpayers a mind-boggling $2.5 Trillion dollars. That's 2.5 million dollars A MILLION TIMES !!!
And that does not count the hundreds of thousands of people that have lost their life to drug violence nor the millions of people who have been imprisoned !!
The whole war on drugs is a case study in insanity !!
----
Ten years ago Portugal decriminalized drugs. And guess what happened? Drug use went DOWN.
Drug violence disappeared.
And hard-drug addictions get treated through the medical and mental health systems.
And NO MONEY goes to drug lords or massive government bureaucracies !!
And Portugal taxpayers are saving a bundle.
.
Dear UnitedStates1776:
You are exactly right!!!
Obama needs to promote legalization, taxation and regulation and he will kick any Republican's axx if he does that. That is my main criticism of Obama, otherwise he is doing as good as can be expected. In fact, his foreign policy has been great - he got Osama!
In the meantime, why not put drones or attack helicopters on the border to attack the smugglers from the air? I have absolutely no sympanthy for the cartels. Death to all of them.
OneBigAssMistakeAmerica
"Chute de druggerz wid de helikoptre. Uze de same predater dronez we uze in afganilan'. maybe den dey wil C de light." flip me off mudda an' dats the las' finger yu will uze...
Dear UnitedStates1776:
You are exactly right!!!
Obama needs to promote legalization, taxation and regulation and he will kick any Republican's axx if he does that. That is my main criticism of Obama, otherwise he is doing as good as can be expected. In fact, his foreign policy has been great - he got Osama!
In the meantime, why not put drones or attack helicopters on the border to attack the smugglers from the air? I have absolutely no sympanthy for the cartels. Death to all of them.
Wait a minute......
The DHS has stated that OUR BORDERS HAVE NEVER BEEN MORE SECURE, and Mr. Obama has stated that the borders are secure enough to allow for his AMNESTY program.
Time for the DHS and Mr. Obama to "visit" the Rio Grande.....just make sure they both ride in Mr. Obama's "hardened" Canadian bus which gets about 2 miles per gallon.
Why? Just let them kill themselves. Darwin's rule.
False.
No warning. Just destruction.
If they have AK-47's and side arms, Why don't we mount Miniguns to the choppers? And use them.
You are so right Azrancher, so right...
Yea, ok, we legalize pot, charge a tax, and everything will be fine right? What happens when the government gets involved in ANYTHING? Prices go up. Government will put a tax similar to cigarettes, VERY high to dissuade use. People will buy once from the "Uncle Barry" Pot store to get that gubment tax stamp. Then they will go back to "senor Jose's" Pot store and buy the non taxed pot, and put it in the taxed bag. What you have now done is increased drug use, as many dont do drugs because..........THEY ARE ILLEGAL, and increased Cartel profits.
The answer is simple, SEAL THE BORDER. We CAN do it, we choose not to. Deportations are at an all time high. What does that tell you? (A) the border is secure and we are just better at catching them, or (B) the border is so porous that more illegals are in the US and therefore easier to find and deport. Hmmmmmm My bet is B. If you have 100 illegals here and deport 10, you have deported 10% If you have 20 MILLION here, and deport 400,000 you have deported 2%
We cross borders before in our wars. Why do we not cross them in this war and secure them.Take control of the Rio Grande use the boats we used in Nam to patrol it.
"Statements by the Obama Administration and by some local officials that the U.S.-Mexican border is safer than ever are derided by many of the pilots."
Joseph Goebbels quotes "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” "
Ido - you don't get it. The cartels now need to check in advance because the border is more secure. Under Bush junior, the drug dealers did not have to worry about being caught.
And you use this story to imply that the border is not more secure. I think that you have it backwards.
FYI - the right answer is to authorize the Border Patrol to use deadly force against all border crossers and drug runners who resist (meaning shoot at them or run from them). If the helo is allowed to stop vehicles via kinetic methods (meaning slice the engine off the truck with a 50 cal) and we start exterminating the drug runners, then the number of drug smugglers will decrease. Of course, this would mean that the cartels would escalate - meaning that they would run fewer runs of higher volume and with heavy protection. So the Border Patrol would need to plan to ratchet up the violence in response (unless we want to be like northern Mexico).
Air to ground missiles to destroy their loads should be deployed. If they die in the process, good riddance!
"Our border is very open, our border is very porous," he said.
The pilots said they are convinced traffickers are much more likely now than they were a few years ago to confront U.S. law enforcement officials.
"We have video of them carrying AK-47's and side arms during these operations and they are not afraid to use them," said Holland.
Time to let our defenders start using RPG to take out these vehicles immediately.
You only get chased into the Rio Grande if you're not on the list of Cartels that give kickbacks to the several government agencies that allow and have allowed tens of trillions of pounds of drugs and money to flow across the border. And to top it off we still have a huge opium trade coming into this country by our military... yet it's illegal to use these even though the government sells and trades them.
You know why marijuana is illegal? Because it puts your brain pattern on a harmonious algorithm with that of the planet, and thus makes you more open to creative thought. But the government likes to induce stress, panic, fear so that you are not using your brain capacity. Hence the bad news everyday, the stress of making a living in a land of plenty, the daily traffic in big cities that the cops "MAKE" by swerving back and forth on the freeway everyday at the same times, the traffic lights that don't properly get enough people through, the large amounts of media based on horror etc...
It's all to dumb you down.
Instead of fighting this war,let,s sell this illegal drugs for the profit.This sale alone would take care of the national debt!!
"they would then signal others to sneak a load of narcotics across the river in a raft."
Since when is marijuana a narcotic?
If find it extremely amusing that right wing trolls like Roy find it necessary to quote the Nazi regime in their effort to get their message out and achieve their goal of a right wing dictatorship in this country. You're loosing it Roy if this garbage is the best you can come up with for discourse.
Let me explain the basic problem with the legalization movement that I have. While I state this problem, know that I am for legalization but I realize that certain things have to happen first.
As it stands right now in many states and on all insurance plans, via federal mandate, people with addiction problems have to have their problems paid for by others. Not only do the insurance companies pay the mental health experts and the substance abuse centers, employers can usually not fire these people outright from their businesses and or ostricize them from the workforce. Only in right to work states do you generally get that option and even then other conflicting laws make it difficult and problematic to terminate an employee outright for suspected drug use. I'm also not even getting into the state programs that all our tax dollars go toward to treat these people through welfare for their self-inflicted problems.
Give individuals the freedom to be free of the cost and responsibilty of the drug user's poor choices in both the private and public sector. Let people truely choose who to associate with and who not to associate with, no strings and lawyers attached, with regard to drugs.
Then after that is done (note the emphasis) there should be no problem having government legalize and tax the hell out of it. Let people be responsible for themselves. However, don't come to me for support to legalize drug use while you're not even entertaining the notion of not removing all these safety nets we've built into the system to protect people from their own stupid actions.
Very well thought out post..
Firstly, ROY WILSON at 1.13 - Godwinned. Yeah, I called it out, bite me. You compare claiming the borders are safe to the idea that the Jews and other "undesirables" including atheists, homosexuals, and Slavs need to be exterminated for causing the massive social unrest that was Hitler's and Goebbels' doing. So, yeah, bite me.
Secondly, what is up with this crap? Doug Ponders, I did a little research (called Google) and found the following:
NBER Working Paper No. 3675 (Also Reprint No. r1563)
Issued in July 1991 (http://www.nber.org/papers/w3675)
In case you missed it, this paper states that, though prohibition was successful early on, later periods of prohibition saw levels of alcohol usage that equalled what was going on pre-prohibition.
For the rest of the arguments, mostly consisting of thinly-veiled racism (or not-so-thinly-veiled, case in point being undertaker8001, you racist jerk), I'd suggest you check on cases in courts as to why you can't just immediately shoot people who cross our borders, drug smugglers or not. International criminal codes do not support the execution of those crossing borders, as it is neither humane nor an appropriate response, whether they are smuggling illegal substances or not. Of course, meeting force with force is a given right for law enforcement. Lately, though, our law enforcement's proclivity of using excessive force (given the liberal (OH NO, HE SAID LIBERAL!!!11!11ONE!!) use of pepper spray against peaceful protesters presenting no threat) has been called into question. Sneak and peak warrants used 99% of the time for drug arrests rather than its intended use to catch possible terrorists (hey, they have to justify a bloated budget somehow), purchasing military-grade UAVs for local law enforcement, using heat-signature spy techniques to shut down grow houses in DIRECT VIOLATION OF THE 4TH AMENDMENT, etc. As to the "argument" that if we legalize it and make it easy to get legally, then people will just go back to buying it illegally because it is so much cheaper, where's the proof? How many moonshine makers/sellers do you meet in the city? Tobacco smugglers? Anyone? You're actually allowed to brew up to I believe 6 gallons of beer a year for personal use, tax free, under the current guidelines, but how many people even do that much? Legalization and regulation will significantly lower the price overall, and cartels won't be able to operate under the new cost reductions if people can get it legally for $2 more with that "gubmint stamp."
master benjamin gates - while I agree that marijuana should be legalized, along with every other drug now covered under the Class A Narcotics guidelines, you're just looney-tunes man. Traffic signals are set up to allow maximum traffic flow through an area with preference to high-capacity veins. The problem is that very little consideration is given to the overall effect, as that involves math, something our politicians have been running from since the 1960s, and the current anti-science group of cuckoos isn't likely to change that. Cops are just jerks, not trying to cause traffic, just being jerks because they won't write each other tickets (props to the Florida Highway Patrol Woman who pulled over a municipal car and issued the officer in his uniform a ticket). And harmonious algorithm with the planet promoting creativity? What the hell does that even mean? Do you know what an algorithm is? Truth is that marijuana oftentimes slows perceptions and reactions, and produces a feeling of contentedness which relieves pain and stress, as well as being beneficial for chemotherapy patients by producing anti-nausea effects. But seriously, there are people out there that promote the use of hemp oil for curing melanoma. We don't need more faux-science taking lives away that would have been saved using conventional treatment. We don't need more Deepak Chopra's clogging the airwaves with intermittent psychobabble about our thoughts directly affecting reality. It's bunkum, pure and simple.
I'll side with LEAP on this (Law Enforcement Against Prohibition). Drug use problems are frequently conflated with drug prohibition problems, and it ends up being a much bigger mess than before, with a whole lot more money to be made on both the governmental and criminal sides. http://www.leap.cc/
I now return you to your regularly scheduled hypocrisy, violent fantasy, and whackaloon-ism.
Legalization would not work .......... After the Gov't regulatory agencies got involved , the FDA got involved , the corporate taxes were assessed along with surcharges it would cost 300 bucks an ounce and create an even bigger black market for the cheaper Pot from Mexico
If we had an abundant supply of drugs in this country without the help of Mexico via Columbia they would still smuggle some__thing Prescription drugs, Organs, People, whatever poor Mexico could make money on and murder would follow...If Mexico could make an honest living peace would follow.
Janstice:
You mean like the $6.46 PER PACK tax that New York city charges for cigarettes? We both know tax would be higher for pot. Lets say $10.00, now add overhead, rent, labor, advertising, utilities, INSURANCE, license fees, etc., you know, all the expenses a LEGAL business has, and you tell me how its going to be cheaper. I know, VOLUME, right? Just what I want, more people in the country with altered minds.
Your argument about making beer makes NO sense. America is a country of convenience. Buy a 6 pack or brew a six pack and drink it xxx days later? hmmmmm, tough call huh? Buy a bag of pot or plant the seed, water it, keep it alive, etc. hmmmmm another tough call.
interested observer.....
Maybe Mr. Obama should have given our National Guard troops weapons with orders to use them. Now, that would be a determent to the cartels in itself. But no, he has used them only for "lookouts" and "advisers".
And NO....the borders are not MORE secure.
Janstince:
And by the way, the "proof" is look at the indian reservations that sell discounted cigarettes. Look at the Mexican border towns that sell cartons of cigarettes without the tax added. There is a booming business of americans going to mexican border towns for discounted dental, medical, cigarettes, medicine, etc. ALL of these without the US regulation, or taxes.
Take out the tax free exorbitant profit and the violence and useage drop like a rock.
Well said, Janstince.
Regulate, Educate, Rehabilitate. This is the same answer that was concluded in nearly every study on the subject of drug prohibition. The enforcement angle of "the war on drugs" is costly and ineffective. There are now more drugs in the US, despite exponentially increasing funding for this boondoggle of a policy. When Nixon announced the War on Drugs (to distract US voters from the calamity that was Vietnam) the budget was $100 million. In 2010, the budget was $15.1 Billion, 31 times Nixon's amount even when adjusted for inflation. (Figures quoted from an AP story May 13, 2010).
What do we have to show for it? Increased cartel profits (the more dangerous it is to smuggle, the higher the street value--
Greater violence, unregulated quality, and the highest incarceration rate in the world-- higher than China's, despite their having a population more than triple our own.
Talons-- your argument about beer belies the reality that microbrewing is a booming trend. Look it up.
Your argument about pot also belies the fact that people are growing it, en mass, and it is widely available. You also don't consider that the medical marijuana industry, highly taxed and highly regulated, is also booming-- and their product costs around the same as the illegal stuff on the street.
Also, all the stress of watering a house plant? Please...
Exactly WMG:
If your house is flooded due to a broken pipe, what do you do? get a bucket to clean up the mess or turn off the water main?
SECURE THE BORDER, then the flow of drugs slows down.
SECURE THE BORDER, then the flow of illegal aliens slows down.
Once the border is secure, you can concentrate on the other sources of illegal drugs, and deport illegal aliens as you find them.
You will never deport all of the illegals all at once, but once you start, there are tax revenues that open up for legal citizens. There are jobs that open up for legal citizens.
You will never stop ALL drugs from getting in, but that doesnt mean you shouldnt try to stop them. Slow them down, and make it too difficult to get in, the cartels will find an easier country to ship them to, or will find a different line of work.
and WMG,
When was the last time you brewed some beer? when was the last time that ANYONE you know brewed some beer? When was the last time you, or anyone you know BOUGHT some beer?
The defense rests
@ talons,
You CAN'T secure our border. It is an impossibility. America is simplt too large to build a prison wall around it. Any fence can be tunneled under, flown over, breached directly, or circumvented via the water. People like you can babble incessantly about our southern border, but the Canadian border is wide open. Thousands of miles of prairie land without even a chain link fence, much less a border patrol agent.
Go, on and on and on if you must, but the fact will ALWAYS remain: As long as people WANT to purchase drugs, they WILL be trafficked into the country. Legalizing them and taxing them is the best way to control the source of the product. Selling drugs legally to registered users like is done in Amsterdam, while providing large fines for people posessing drugs without the approved tax stamp could cut out the cartels in a way that militarizing our borders never could.
Since you want to throw illegal aliens into the equation, the LAST thing in the world that you truly want is to remove the illegal aliens from this country. Sure the idiots at GOP headquartes want you to believe that the illegal aliens are stealing high paying jobs from honest Americans, but the reality is FAR different.
Most illegal aliens work as laborers and agricultural workers. They earn minimum wage or LESS. They work long hours, six or seven days per week. Many farmers are FORCED to hire illegal aliens because American citizens WON'T accept a job for the salary offered and the hours required. Kepp in mind that farmers are not required to provide workers compensation, disability, overtime, or health insurance to their employees. Doesn't that make you want to get up and 3am and spend your day getting crapped on and kicked in the head by the cows that you are milking? Since Congress refuses to allow farmers to raise the amount of money that they charge for their products, even as companies like Kraft and others make record profits by raising the prices to the consumers, there is no money to pay decent wages to a large work force.
How would you like to allow farmers to charge an amount for their dairy and grain products that allowed them to hire American workers, grow their crops, and make a modest profit? After all, it IS capitalism, isn't it? If they were to do that your food prices would multiply by more than 500% overnight. Think about it, $15/gal of milk, $12/ bag of onions, $10/lb for CHEAP beef, $16/lb of cheese, $8/ head of lettuce. The damage to the economy would be catastrophic.
There is a VERY unpopular, but undeniable truth that this country hides like a dirty secret. Here it is: EVER SINCE AMERICA OUTLAWED SLAVERY, THE AMERICAN PUBLIC HAS BEEN DEPENDENT ON ILLEGAL AND UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS TO DO THE MOST MENIAL, BUT ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY JOBS FOR THIS COUNTRY TO FUNCTION IN EVEN THE MOST BASIC MANNER. Why do you think that the GOP has NEVER put kicking the illegal aliens out of this country as an actual priority when they have control of Washington?!?
Instead of fixating on the few illegal aliens that actually "jump the fence" to work on Wall St., you should walk up to each and every illegal alien that you can find, and give them a big, wet, sloppy kiss, and thank them for being the backbone of the American economy.
Our government actively sues any state that tries to do anything about this, while arming the cartels all at the same time! Why do we stand for this @!$%#?
Yet we control the borders of two other countries all at the same time. Of course we can secure our borders haha. Hell, I bet we could find enough volunteers to do the job without any government assistance at all! What a silly statement.
Jsweiney:
Let me see if I have this correctly, since we cant totally seal the border we shouldnt try to seal it, or limit the access?
And as you are all for the illegal aliens, are you for them as long as they do the job you dont want? What if they want to do YOUR job for less money? Is it still ok? What if they want to become your boss at the same wage you now make so there is no incentive for you to move up? Still ok? I will give you a hint, any answer other than "yes, it is ok if they want to take my job for less money" makes you a racist. By allowing a sub class of people into the United States that do not have the same benefits, and advantages as citizens make us weaker as a country. The purpose of IMMIGRATION is to control who comes in and increase our status as a nation. By allowing 20 MILLION uneducated "laborers" into our country slowly, but surely, brings us closer to third world, (or Mexico) status. We want the smartest, and the brightest to make our country better.
If there were no illegal aliens doing the jobs, then perhaps the wages would need to be raised for LEGAL citizens to take the jobs. How is that a bad thing? Wages go up, Less money gets sent back to Mexico, Tax revenues go up. Less people on social services, (legal and illegal both). Explain to me the down side.
Jsweiney:
Let me see if I have this correctly, since we cant totally seal the border we shouldnt try to seal it, or limit the access?
And as you are all for the illegal aliens, are you for them as long as they do the job you dont want? What if they want to do YOUR job for less money? Is it still ok? What if they want to become your boss at the same wage you now make so there is no incentive for you to move up? Still ok? I will give you a hint, any answer other than "yes, it is ok if they want to take my job for less money" makes you a racist. By allowing a sub class of people into the United States that do not have the same benefits, and advantages as citizens make us weaker as a country. The purpose of IMMIGRATION is to control who comes in and increase our status as a nation. By allowing 20 MILLION uneducated "laborers" into our country slowly, but surely, brings us closer to third world, (or Mexico) status. We want the smartest, and the brightest to make our country better.
If there were no illegal aliens doing the jobs, then perhaps the wages would need to be raised for LEGAL citizens to take the jobs. How is that a bad thing? Wages go up, Less money gets sent back to Mexico, Tax revenues go up. Less people on social services, (legal and illegal both). Explain to me the down side.
Jsweiney:
Let me see if I have this correctly, since we cant totally seal the border we shouldnt try to seal it, or limit the access?
And as you are all for the illegal aliens, are you for them as long as they do the job you dont want? What if they want to do YOUR job for less money? Is it still ok? What if they want to become your boss at the same wage you now make so there is no incentive for you to move up? Still ok? I will give you a hint, any answer other than "yes, it is ok if they want to take my job for less money" makes you a racist. By allowing a sub class of people into the United States that do not have the same benefits, and advantages as citizens make us weaker as a country. The purpose of IMMIGRATION is to control who comes in and increase our status as a nation. By allowing 20 MILLION uneducated "laborers" into our country slowly, but surely, brings us closer to third world, (or Mexico) status. We want the smartest, and the brightest to make our country better.
If there were no illegal aliens doing the jobs, then perhaps the wages would need to be raised for LEGAL citizens to take the jobs. How is that a bad thing? Wages go up, Less money gets sent back to Mexico, Tax revenues go up. Less people on social services, (legal and illegal both). Explain to me the down side.
Jsweiney:
Let me see if I have this correctly, since we cant totally seal the border we shouldnt try to seal it, or limit the access?
And as you are all for the illegal aliens, are you for them as long as they do the job you dont want? What if they want to do YOUR job for less money? Is it still ok? What if they want to become your boss at the same wage you now make so there is no incentive for you to move up? Still ok? I will give you a hint, any answer other than "yes, it is ok if they want to take my job for less money" makes you a racist. By allowing a sub class of people into the United States that do not have the same benefits, and advantages as citizens make us weaker as a country. The purpose of IMMIGRATION is to control who comes in and increase our status as a nation. By allowing 20 MILLION uneducated "laborers" into our country slowly, but surely, brings us closer to third world, (or Mexico) status. We want the smartest, and the brightest to make our country better.
If there were no illegal aliens doing the jobs, then perhaps the wages would need to be raised for LEGAL citizens to take the jobs. How is that a bad thing? Wages go up, Less money gets sent back to Mexico, Tax revenues go up. Less people on social services, (legal and illegal both). Explain to me the down side.
sorry for the repost, it gave me an error message
@ Kornfed:
Oh, yeah, WHAT two other countries do we control the borders?
If you are talking about Iraq and Afghanistan, those borders are ANYTHING but secure. People cross back and forth, in and out of those countries EVERY DAY!
According to our government, a major portion of the world's heroin supply comes out of the Afghan poppy fields. Are those shipments being declared and checked off by the American soldiers, since we control the borders, or are they being smuggled out due to the porous nature of the border?
Again, according to our own government, terrorists freely move between Pakistan and Afghanistan with impunity. Are you saying that the American military is watching them come and go, but doesn't intervene? According to you, our soldiers must be retarded.
Using the information provided by the U.S. government yet again, and members of the Iranian Republican Guard smuggle weapons, terrorists, and money into Iraq. Are they being checked by the army, and allowed through? We have ample evidence of Kurdish separatists in northern Iraq Crossing into Turkey and conducting terrorist bombings. Turkey is an American ally and a member of NATO. Are you suggesting that even though we have complete control of the border of Iraq, we are allowing an ally and fellow NATO member nation to be attacked? There is free movement between Syria and Iraq as well, although it isn't as simple as it was before the brutal crackdown of Bashar al-Asad.
As for your foolish comment of having volunteers to patrol and secure the border, it makes other American Taliban (GOP) stand up and clap for you, but it isn't realistic. Unless you have enough people to stand shoulder to shoulder encircling the nation, the border couldn't be secured. And even if you COULD get everybody in the nation to stand shoulder to shoulder, day and night, rain or shine, through searing heat and freezing cold 240 million people wouldn't be enough to cover the entire border. (240 million represents everybody in America aged 17 and older). Even if it did prove to be enough, ALL INDUSTRY INSIDE AMERICA WOULD COME TO A GRINDING HALT DESTROYING ANY ECONOMY WHATSOEVER. And if you can possibly think of a scenario that would allow the American economy to flourish with no employees working, then the traffickers could simply fly the drugs over your head, or tunnel them under your feet.
Yes, there was a silly statement, but IT WAS YOURS!!!
So, while you contributed you "two-cents," let me give you a nickel's worth of free advice: Quit while you are behind. Thinking isn't suited for you, and while you certainly have the right to say what you choose, it is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and prove them right.
Actually, I do want to end illegal immigration. I want farm workers to be treated fairly, and paid fairly for their work. If YOU want to keep them working as is, you are just condoning them being treated just like slaves.
Legal citizens would do the work if A) They had their federal and state welfare cut off if they refused; and B) The pay/benefits was high enough. I don't actually expect benefits like medical/dental to really be offered, but am throwing it in there to make a point. If the pay alone is high enough, people will work. If the pay was $300/hr., can you tell me people wouldn't be swarming the fields to pick lettuce? Of course, that's an insane example, but it's just to show that saying Americans would "never" do that work is ridiculous.
And increasing the wage of the farm workers would not, in fact, increase the cost of food by 500%. Estimates vary by industry, but according to a study done by the Center for Immigration Studiese in 2007 "Labor costs comprise only 6 percent of the price consumers pay for fresh produce. Thus, if farm wages were allowed to rise 40 percent, and if all the costs were passed on to consumers, the cost to the average household would be only about $8 a year."
The current system only perpetuates the division of classes here in America. Republicans and Democrats alike have been responsible for allowing it to continue.
@ talons:
Unlike many Americans, I have three different degrees, if I have an illegal alien competing for my job, then he won't be doing it for minimum wage. Second, I am the boss where I work. Third, due to my degrees, I have pretty much put myself as far as I am going in my field without retraining completely. Fourth, my field (healthcare)is DESPERATELY understaffed and there are plenty of jobs available.
But your argument is the GOP rhetoric that doesn't hold up. Let me say it slowly so that perhaps you can grasp the argument: MOST...ILLEGAL...ALIENS...DO...NOT...TAKE...HIGH...PAYING...SALARIED...JOBS! MOST...ILLEGAL...ALIENS...TAKE...JOBS...FOR...MINIMUM...WAGE...OR...LESS! Should I wait, or do you understand each of those words? Can you put them together and comprehend them?
Your claim as to the purpose of immigration is a good definition for high school civics class, but that's as far as it goes. Immigration is used to keep undesirables out, but illegal immigration for the purpose filling unwanted jobs has been the OFFICIAL policy of the U.S. government since the slaves were freed.
What has us on track to become a third world country, is the way that the members of our government sell their votes to the highest bidder. They have allowed foreign nations to have more say over American policy than the American public. The richest corporations take American tax dolars and invest it into cheaper labor OVERSEAS. The Mexicans that hold precious, necessary, and wanted American jobs still live in Mexico. Working in factories that left America to avoid the EPA, taxes, and high salaries of the American public. THAT'S WHY WE ARE HEADING TOWARD THIRD WORLD STATUS.
Employers that hire illegal aliens still have to fill out I-9 and W-4 forms. That means that taxes ARE taken out of illegal aliens earnings. That is money that they CAN'T get back. That money sits in the IRS accounts for the required three years, and is then moved into the federal government accounts as free money to the government.
You say that it would be ok for the prices of agricultural products to be raised to allow Americans to take the jobs. How muchwould YOUR salary need to be raised when the cost of your groceries rises by 500% or more? Now multiply that amount by the number of people that your company employs. How many small businesses do you expect would fail due to the massive jump in inflation as everybody simply tries to be able to afford food? How many millions more would be unemplyed one year after raising the price of agricultural products?
How exactly would crushing small, medium, and big businesses in the country by forcing unimaginable inflation and higher salaries upon them decrease the number of people on social services?
I know that I have asked you to answer a LOT of questions. But let me say that unless you have something other than the GOP standard rhetoric that denies reality in favor of fantasy, I have no interest at all in what you have to say to my questions.
UnitedStates1776
You haven't even scratched the surface to how many letters I have sent my Congressman, and Senator and on that subject, only to be given the rhetoric of I will not sponsor or support that type of legislation.
They don't want to hear it from us bottom feeders.
They don't care about what we want, nor do they ever want to care of what we want. No matter if it is rising gas prices, food prices, immigration, if your poor, unemployed, anything, unless we the bottom feeders are rich, hence floating above the bottom feeder cesspool, we are not even a thought.
And you wonder why I say that, if we the citizens, the voters, the LEGAL people who live here who pay the taxes, ask to be heard, well if they wanted to hear us, ask yourself is the border secure? That's a NO! Have they tried to lower the cost of energy we use in this country, like gas , heating power, or have those that supply that continued to let costs rise! YES, and will it change NO! Have they made medical marijuana a difficult process again, YES, do you think they care that it does work , and the information that backs that up is right, No! will it ever change, NO!, and Why, because we have Senators, and Representatives that are governed by only one thing, MONEY. And folks we don't even stand a chance nor are we ever. Do you think the cost of pharmaceuticals ( Prescription drugs ) will ever be affordable to those unable to get them, NAH, put that out of your mind, because if you get Obama care you won't be able to afford that even on top of the premium you have to pay, and god forbid you don't have insurance when this goes into effect, as you can be sent to jail for not having any.
Even though they are trying to over turn Obamacare, it hasn't even made it out of the Supreme court,and some of them are liberal, isn't that a stacked deck, in a game of face up poker.
Medical marijuana, medicinal marijuana, marijuana PERIOD!! The many by products that come from it, and the prohibition that goes with that will never happen, and the reason for that is or what is necessary for that to happen is that at least 3/4 of the House of Representatives, and 3/4 of the Senate would need to go, and a term policy would have to be established, but until that day comes you , I and everyone else are just like fart's in the wind, oh they say they understand our plight, but in reality, they have their own agenda, and it's more important than anything we want.
So I my friend am for the end of Prohibition, but it won't happen until we have representatives that will actually listen to the WE THE PEOPLE part of the Constitution, until then it is not going to happen.
In the mean time medical marijuana patients will suffer, the border will stay unsecured, illegals will continue to pour in like there is no tomorrow, drugs will still enter this country, and we the people will be the minority before long, so sit down and take a number, and wait for your number to be called.
@ Random B:
My step-father owns a dairy farm, I would like to see farmers get a fair break. But it is as unrealistic as your example of $300/hr to work the fields.
Now I'm NOT calling you a liar, but your study is WAY off. Your comment seems like it was written by an intelligent person, so I am sure that you are aware that statistics are easily manipulated, and not to be trusted.
Take the dairy farm as an example. If you want to bring things fairly into the 21st century then you have to take far more than just the wages paid to the employees into account. The prices that are paid per 100lb of milk were set decades ago, and while they fluctuate due to market variables, they never travel more than a few pennies one way or the other.
Meanwhile the price of fuel has risen by 800%, pesticides have increased exponentially, EPA regulations on waste storage and removal have increased the costs, utility costs have risen significantly, the cost of seed to plant are many times higher, the price of feed for the animals is through the roof, and the cost of the actual machinery has gone up.
You have to adjust ALL of that PLUS the salaries in order to make things FAIR for the farmers, and your $8/year cost increase to the consumer just went to hell.
So you have the choice, destroy the economy by paying farmers a fair wage for the work they do, or continue to allow illegal aliens work the fields and be able to afford the food that you eat. When all of the rhetoric and propaganda are stripped away, the choice is just that simple.
Yes, I know statistics can be manipulated. The study I got the figure on seemed unbiased and reasonable. Here's the link:
(filtered out by the forum - it's on the cis.org web site).
I hear what you have to say, however, we are only talking about the effect on consumer prices if we change the relative cost of labor. Increases in fuel, pesticides, etc.. have already manifested in the market. Additionally, it can be argued that artificially keeping the labor costs low is a disincentive for the farmers to search for and invest in other means to increase efficiencies in production costs.
I'm inclined to beleive that the continous conglomeration of agriculture in this country is detrimental to our long-term well-being. I know it might run counter to my last argument, but I think we actually need to encourage smaller farms, more local produce (heirloom seeds, anyone), and more responsible land management. This would reduce the risk of contaminants spreading from one small plot to a nationwide supply, prevent wholesale famine from a disease that wipes out all genetically identical crops, reduce pollution and transportation costs... and maybe get farm workers treated as people instead of replaceable tools.
jsweiney:
LOL, ok, instead of answering the question, you simply say "I am making this, doing this, qualified for this" Put yourself into the real world, assume for a minute you are the manager of a NAPA. And now, I will try to type slowly for you. IS IT OK FOR SOMEONE TO COME AND DO YOUR JOB FOR LESS MONEY?
500% lol where are you getting these numbers? I gaurantee that if you raise the labor cost of McDonalds workers $5.00 an hour my big mac is NOT going to go to $15.00 Raise the wages of maids 5.00 My hotel room isnt going to go up 500% Its called supply and demand. You raise the prices WHAT PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO PAY. Why would I pay $10.00 for a salad? I will give you a hint.... I WOULDNT. But I would pay a little more, as higher wages equals more disposable income which means more jobs, which means more tax revenue. How is this a bad thing?
Now, back to the question, is it ok for an illegal alien to take your job, or drive the wages down to a point that "no American will work for"?
jsweiney,
In response to your response to Random B:
What do these other things have to do with LABOR costs? If you raise the price of feed, what happens? costs go up. Do you raise the price of your milk? DUHHHH. If fuel goes up? if everything goes up, and you dont raise prices, who is out of business?
As Jswiney points out, most of the cost of everything is fuel. Legalize hempseed oil and the farmers will be able to pay decent wages, while the cost of your groceries goes down.
OPEC would lose their minds.
There was no such thing as illegal immigration before 1922. Immigrants at Ellis Island were examined for communicable diseases and checked against lists of know criminals. If they passed those two tests, in they came, no quotas, no limits. If we did the same at the southern border, we would have a stream of skilled, willing, taxpaying laborers, employment opportunities for native Americans would increase with the increased business activity.
undertaker8001:
I've been insulted way worse by much better people than you. I'm gonna go French judge on your ass: you get a 3.5; unoriginal, poorly written and articulated, poorly executed, irrelevant, just generally bad.
@undertaker8001
Lol. Spoken with projection like a true basement-dweller. Quit mooching off your parents and develop your own brain.
Doug Ponders
I couldn't agree more.
If they are "ON" the border then isn't that kinda neutral not america and not mexico so shoot them and lets have a christmas party with the cargo
@Jazzmaster
they were probably heading to GWB ranch. Once there they would have been safe.
As long as there's such a huge and profitable market for the drugs here, this isn't going to stop, or even slow down.
Meanwhile corruption in the ranks grows.
The answer to the drug problem is to end the spectacularly failed costly Drug War.
They say the Drug War is over. Don't be fooled. As long as drugs remain criminalized the Drug War will never be over.
When is the U.S. government going to finally realize that it can't legislate morality? Many people believe the answer to solving our drug problem is to simply tell people to say "no" to drugs but after being in practice for decades now the evidence shows this has failed miserably. People have been doing drugs for thousands of years and it's never going to stop. There will always be people who do drugs and those who become addicted.
Didn't we learn from the mistakes of Alcohol Prohibition in the 1920s/30s? It didn't work then, and drug prohibition certainly isn't working now. The failed Drug War has cost the U.S. taxpayers over a trillion dollars and has been in force for over seven decades. And the real tragedy here is all of the violence that has been associated with the Drug War and illegal drug trafficking. Drugs are more readily available and the Drug War has created a black market, gangs in every U.S. state, and powerful violent cartels south of the border and in other countries.
The laws have done more damage to this country than the drugs themselves. We have created more criminals out of drug users/addicts who should really be treated as medical patients. Wouldn't we be better off spending the Drug War funding on education, drug treatment and rehabilitation instead of failed law enforcement and incarceration? And not having to build more prisons?
We need to reevaluate our position on drug use in this country. I firmly believe we should decriminalize all drugs. Legalize marijuana and regulate it like alcohol in regards to the law, and create an atmosphere that doesn't stigmatize the drug user. I would never advocate anyone use dangerous hard drugs like meth, cocaine, heroin, etc. But the fact of life remains people will choose to use such drugs and become addicted. Countries in Europe have tried different strategies that have reduced the problems associated with drug use. Why can't the U.S. take these same approaches? We should adopt programs for hard drugs (meth, coke, heroin,etc.) like the Swiss heroin program (where addicts can get their drugs from medically supervised clinics) which has shown positive results in reducing violent crime and HIV infections and helps drug addicts to become stable and productive members of society.
Locking people up and throwing away the key is not the answer. When someone has a real drug problem and is addicted their main focus will always be to obtain and use drugs, regardless of any law. And putting a mark on someone's permanent record that will follow them for the rest of their lives will only hinder them to become productive members in society in getting jobs, student financial aid, etc.
There are many people against legalizing and/or decriminalizing drugs and have expressed many fears and dooms day scenarios but evidence has revealed this would simply NOT be the result. Portugal decriminalized drugs in 2001 and none of the nightmare scenarios touted by preenactment decriminalization opponents have become a reality.
And what are the ramifications of manufacturing, importing, and selling the drugs right here in the U.S? Wouldn't that create a new industry? Jobs? Tax revenue? And stop funding the violent cartels and eventually take away their power?
These are questions that I think once answered, will solve our drug problems and the days of the Drug War will be history.
"thenewstoday" ... you couldnt have been more wrong. The rat's post is not a rant and it's not rambling either. Perhaps you could consider increasing our countries IQ by leaving if you cant read and comprehend a decent post.
I agree logical.... Seems to me that the dumbing down of America is those that believe everything the government tells them and what hollywood shows them. Just because every stoner on TV is an idiot, doesnt make that true in reality. Just because the government tells you that marijuana makes you go crazy with refer madness, doesnt make that true in reality.
Lets do an experiment, have thenewstoday and OneDirtyRat take IQ tests and compare them to the average american and each other. My money is on the Rat.....
My money is on either the Walrus or the Eggman!
So United States 1776, aren't you the rational one. So rational. I guess they should put a big fat government USDA stamp of approval on drug use, even heroin, crack, cocaine (I guess you don't know anyone who had a heart attack from the stuff). Yeah that'll show them. And if you want to site other countries, England tried giving rations of heroin out to addicts in the hippie era and they were overrun with addicts, and the program was a failure. Pointing to alcohol doesn't help as there are AA meetings in almost every town, And I'd still rather deal with a drunk than a drug addict. And don't even talk about money. I'd much rather see a government who put its citizens' well being over financial gains.
Smalltownpete, Reefer Madness? Really? Didn't that movie come out in like the 1930's or'40s? Weren't the hippie eras of the'60s and '70s where it was practically mandatory to get loaded after that? If anything I think the entertainment industry is promoting it big time. Every comedy now has drug scenes, and don't even get started on the music industry. They've been in that business for 50 years.
90 years, my grandmother smoked 'muggles" with jazz musicians in the 20s when it was legal. Also with me in the 90s. .....and 70s and 80s.
thenewstoday-
Too drugged to compete with what? What are we competing over? I didnt see you challenge me to anything?
You didnt answer anything they challenged you with! YOU FAIL. You simply posted a huge rant about how evil you think marijuana is. They were discussing the downfalls of prohibition, but you seemed to ignore that completely. Was it due to your lack of reading and understanding?
I love how the opposing view point that OneDirtyRat posted is a rant, but that garbage you posted is somehow not? Your IQ just dropped a few notches...
Thats a flat out lie. Please show how every article every written about marijuana that shows what you says it does. Oh wait, you didnt even source a single article, not one study.
Hmmm, so you dont source anything, claim that every study ever conducted is on your side or paid off by the government, then claim im "too drugged to compete"? What scientific report have you provided? NONE. Then you wanna talk about paranoia? Claiming that every study is on your side, except the ones being paid of by the government. Talk about paranoia, thinking that those who oppose you are part of a government conspiracy?
As to my name, its because I grew up in a small town. If you really want to know, Im an engineer that probably makes twice as much as you do, all while smoking pot. I went through high school smokin weed just about every day, got a full scholarship to college because my grades were so good. It also helps when you get a 1380 on your SAT's. That was out of 1600 back in my day, before they changed it to 2400 in 2005 I beleive..... So there goes your dream about me being a janitor, im sure that would help you sleep at night.
Unbelieveable-
I brought up refer madness because that was one of the tools the government used to get the public on board to make it illegal. They spread false information about the affects of the drug to scare the public.
But again they are spreading mis-information about the drug. Every time you see a drug scene in a comedy, its witha bunch of idiots. When have they every showed people smoking pot in a more sophisticated setting? Me and my friends dont go to Eric Formans basement to get high and make fun of the idiot Kelso. Harold and Kumar riding a cheetah? Really? Please show me where hollywood is trying to show marijuana in a good light. Everyone that has not been around the drug equates smoking pot with retards because thats all they see on tv and thats what the government tells them.
thenewstoday-
Instead of the Marijuana Screening Quiz lets look at a "legal" drug alcohol!
One study claims that "excessive alcohol consumption in Russia, particularly by men, has in recent years caused more than half of all the deaths at ages 15-54 years."
Alcohol-related deaths in the United Kingdom are coded using the Tenth Revision of the International Classification of Diseases (ICD-10).[21] ICD-10 comprises:
A 2009 study found that 9,000 people are dying from alcohol-related diseases every year, three times the number 25 years previously
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention report, "From 2001–2005, there were approximately 79,000 deaths annually attributable to excessive alcohol use. In fact, excessive alcohol use is the 3rd leading lifestyle-related cause of death for people in the United States each year."
Chronic heavy alcohol consumption impairs brain development, causes brain shrinkage, dementia, physical dependence, increases neuropsychiatric and cognitive disorders and causes distortion of the brain chemistry.
Alcohol abuse is associated with wide spread and significant brain lesions. Alcohol related brain damage is due not only to the direct toxic effects of alcohol; alcohol withdrawal, nutritional deficiency, electrolyte disturbances, and liver damage are also believed to contribute to alcohol related brain damage
Consuming large amounts of alcohol over a period of time can impair normal brain development in humans.[74][75] Deficits in retrieval of verbal and nonverbal information and in visuospatial functioning were evident in youths with histories of heavy drinking during early and middle adolescence.[76][77]
During adolescence critical stages of neurodevelopment occur. Binge drinking, which is common among adolescents, interferes with this important stage of development.[78] Heavy alcohol consumption inhibits new brain cell development.[79]
Nearly half of chronic alcoholics may have myopathy.[80] Proximal muscle groups are especially affected. Twenty-five percent of alcoholics may have peripheral neuropathy, including autonomic
Excessive alcohol intake is associated with impaired prospective memory. This impaired cognitive ability leads to increased failure to carry out an intended task at a later date, for example, forgetting to lock the door or to post a letter on time. The higher the volume of alcohol consumed and the longer consumed, the more severe the impairments.[82] One of the organs most sensitive to the toxic effects of chronic alcohol consumption is the brain. In France approximately 20% of admissions to mental health facilities are related to alcohol related cognitive impairment, most notably alcohol related dementia. Chronic excessive alcohol intake is also associated with serious cognitive decline and a range of neuropsychiatric complications. The elderly are the most sensitive to the toxic effects of alcohol on the brain
Fetal alcohol syndrome or FAS is a disorder of permanent birth defects that occurs in the offspring of women who drink alcohol during pregnancy. Drinking heavily or during the early stages of prenatal development has been conclusively linked to FAS; moderate consumption is associated with fetal damage.[8] Alcohol crosses the placental barrier and can stunt fetal growth or weight, create distinctive facial stigmata, damaged neurons and brain structures, and cause other physical, mental, or behavioural problems.[164] Fetal alcohol exposure is the leading known cause of mental retardation in the Western world.[165] Alcohol consumption during pregnancy is associated with brain insulin and insulin-like growth factor resistance
Alcohol use remains extremely widespread among today's teenagers. Nearly three quarters of students (72%) have consumed alcohol (more than just a few sips) by the end of high school, and more than a third (37%) have done so by eighth grade.
In 2008, 11,773 people were killed in alcohol-impaired driving crashes, accounting for nearly one third (32%) of all traffic-related deaths in the United States.
Cause of Death....................Number of Deaths
All Causes..................................2,436,652
Cardiovascular diseases.............779,367
Malignant neoplasms..................568,668
Drug induced................................37,485
Suicide..........................................36,547
Motor Vehicle accidents................36,284
Septicemia(infections)..................35,587
by Fireamrs...................................31,224
Accidental Poisoning.....................30,504
Alcohol induced.............................23,199
Homicide.......................................16,591
Human immunodeficiency(HIV)......9,424
Viral Hepatitis................................7,652
Cannabis(Marijuana)......................0
Yea thats a ZERO next to marijuana......
Lets compare smoking cigs....
Cigarette smoking is the most preventable cause of illness and death in the United States. A large number of Americans smoke cigarettes, and each year more than one million children and adults start smoking cigarettes. Many people die every year from illnesses caused by smoking. People who smoke die earlier than those who do not smoke. The risk of disease increases if you smoke a lot, inhale deeply, or have smoked many years.
Cigarettes are filled with poison that goes into the lungs when you inhale. Coughing, dizziness, and burning of the eyes, nose, and throat are early signs that smoking is harming you. Smoking increases your health risks if you have diabetes, high blood pressure, or high blood cholesterol. The long-term problems of smoking cigarettes are the following:
Other problems: The following are other problems that smoking may cause:
This is what you seem to not understand, there a hundreds of side effects to everything we do in our daily lives. Abusing any substance is harmful to your health. You can stand there all day and scream about the side effects of marijuana, I could care less. The fact is you can die from consuming too much WATER, but you can NOT die from consuming too much marijuana. Ive read just as many if not more studies than you have on the subject. So please dont sit there and think you know everything there is to know, and trust me Im well aware that I dont either.
thenewstoday:
For someone who claims to be so intelligent why do you have the need to resort to insults to get your point across?
FYI- I took a Mensa pretest a few years back and scored 132 which is the minimum score for genius. Now I don't claim to be a genius (I know I'm not) but that is proof enough that I'm no dope or a meathead or unintelligent. Your insults only prove what kind of person you are. You figure it out.
As smalltownpete has all ready pointed out, you completely missed the point of my original post. You haven't addressed any of the points I brought up except how bad marijuana MIGHT be. The biggest problem I have with your so called government studies they were done with the sole purpose in finding any and everything that is negative when it comes to the use of marijuana. Therefore, those studies are biased to say the least. The DEA has blocked all requests to study marijuana and its medicinal values and any possible research into any positive effects that marijuana might have. And if you notice, throughout your post of the negative side effects of marijuana, the word "can" predicates many of the studies' claims which means it might be possible but that doesn't mean it's inevitable. All of these so-called claims can be disputed by other studies. I know of a university study that tried to find the cancer causing effects of habitual pot smokers but instead discovered that marijuana actually inhibits cancer cell growth in some cancers. I could fill this thread with pages and pages of studies refuting every negative study on the side effects of marijuana.
The main point is this: If any or all of the claims your studies make were true (which we know aren't), what does that have to do with the fact that the drug war is a total failure and has done nothing more than ruin lives, killed thousands of innocent people, and wasted trillions of dollars in tax money? How is any of what you claim a justification for the perpetuation of failed drug policies?
Can you answer those questions? Without resorting to insults?
These comments pretty much speak for themselves and reveal the true nature of who you are. And I wonder if you consider yourself to be a Christian?
How does smoking more weed "get the end over quicker"? You obviously have a distorted and biased view on the effects of smoking marijuana.
If all of those studies were so true about the so-called harmful effects it MIGHT cause, why does a major doctor's association in California advocate for the legalization of marijuana?
http://norml.org/news/2011/10/19/california-state-s-largest-doctor-s-association-calls-for-legalizing-and-regulating-cannabis
The key to anything in life is moderation. Anyone can abuse anything and do harm to themselves. Addiction is a disease that can affect anyone and it could be an addiction to many things other than mind altering substances. Are we going to outlaw everything that MIGHT cause someone harm? If that were the case, I guess we need to outlaw cheeseburgers because cardiovascular disease is the number one killer in the U.S., right? Or we should out law aspirin because that kills thousands every year, correct? Or skydiving? Or how about breathing oxygen; people get lung cancer and have never inhaled anything in their lives but fresh air?
I guess we should outlaw living because it might be detrimental to our health.
Theneswtoday:
If you had read my post carefully, which you obviously didn't, I said we should decriminalize all drugs. I don't think hard drugs like meth, crack, heroin, etc. should be legal. There is a big difference between legalization and decriminalization. I only advocate for the total legalization of marijuana and it should be taxed and regulated like alcohol.
The time has long since passed we should end drug prohibition and direct drug war resources in drug education and rehabilitation and stop treating people with serious drug addictions as criminals and as medical patients.
thenewstoday, you are suspended for a day for violating rule # 1 of the Code of Honor.
SmallTownPete -
I would think that if you are going to the trouble to type a 600 word post, that you would at least have accurate information.
It is not. Disinformation can kill innocent people.
Among Other Things, It Is A Gateway Drug
Marijuana is a gateway drug. In drug law enforcement, rarely do we meet heroin or cocaine addicts who did not start their drug use with marijuana. Scientific studies bear out our anecdotal findings.
For example, the Journal of the American Medical Association reported, based on a study of 300 sets of twins, that marijuana-using twins were four times more likely than their siblings to use cocaine and crack cocaine, and five times more likely to use hallucinogens such as LSD.
Furthermore, the younger a person is when he or she first uses marijuana, the more likely that person is to use cocaine and heroin and become drug-dependent as an adult. One study found that 62 percent of the adults who first tried marijuana before they were 15 were likely to go on to use cocaine. In contrast, only one percent or less of adults who never tried marijuana used heroin or cocaine.
Significant Health Problems
Smoking marijuana can cause significant health problems. Marijuana contains more than 400 chemicals, of which 60 are cannabinoids. Smoking a marijuana cigarette deposits about three to five times more tar into the lungs than one filtered tobacco cigarette.
Consequently, regular marijuana smokers suffer from many of the same health problems as tobacco smokers, such as chronic coughing and wheezing, chest colds, and chronic bronchitis. In fact, studies show that smoking three to four joints per day causes at least as much harm to the respiratory system as smoking a full pack of cigarettes every day.
Marijuana smoke also contains 50 to 70 percent more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than tobacco smoke and produces high levels of an enzyme that converts certain hydrocarbons into malignant cells.
Mental Health Problems
In addition, smoking marijuana can lead to increased anxiety, panic attacks, depression, social withdrawal, and other mental health problems, particularly for teens. Research shows that kids aged 12 to 17 who smoke marijuana weekly are three times more likely than nonusers to have suicidal thoughts.
Marijuana use also can cause cognitive impairment, to include such short-term effects as distorted perception, memory loss, and trouble with thinking and problem solving. Students with an average grade of D or below were found to be more than four times as likely to have used marijuana in the past year as youths who reported an average grade of A.
For young people, whose brains are still developing, these effects are particularly problematic and jeopardize their ability to achieve their full potential.
Take for instance the disastrous effects of marijuana smoking on driving. As the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration noted, "
Take for instance the disastrous effects of marijuana smoking on driving. As the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) noted, "Epidemiology data from . . . traffic arrests and fatalities indicate that after alcohol, marijuana is the most frequently detected psychoactive substance among driving populations."
Marijuana causes drivers to experience decreased car handling performance, increased reaction times, distorted time and distance estimation, sleepiness, impaired motor skills, and lack of concentration.
Driving While Impaired
The extent of the problem of marijuana-impaired driving is startling. One in six (or 600,000) high school students drive under the influence of marijuana, almost as many as drive under the influence of alcohol, according to estimates released in September 2003 by the Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP). A study of motorists pulled over for reckless driving showed that, among those who were not impaired by alcohol, 45 percent tested positive for marijuana.
Those who patrol streets and highways, know that the consequences of marijuana-impaired driving can be tragic. For example, four children and their van driver-nicknamed Smokey by the children for his regular marijuana smoking-died in April 2002 when a Tippy Toes Learning Academy van veered off a freeway and hit a concrete bridge abutment. He was found at the crash scene with marijuana in his pocket.
data from . . . traffic arrests and fatalities indicate that after alcohol, marijuana is the most frequently detected psychoactive substance among driving populations."
Marijuana causes drivers to experience decreased car handling performance, increased reaction times, distorted time and distance estimation, sleepiness, impaired motor skills, and lack of concentration.
Driving While Impaired
The extent of the problem of marijuana-impaired driving is startling. One in six (or 600,000) high school students drive under the influence of marijuana, almost as many as drive under the influence of alcohol, according to estimates released in September 2003 by the Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP). A study of motorists pulled over for reckless driving showed that, among those who were not impaired by alcohol, 45 percent tested positive for marijuana.
Those who patrol streets and highways, know that the consequences of marijuana-impaired driving can be tragic. For example, four children and their van driver-nicknamed Smokey by the children for his regular marijuana smoking-died in April 2002 when a Tippy Toes Learning Academy van veered off a freeway and hit a concrete bridge abutment. He was found at the crash scene with marijuana in his pocket.
The war on drugs, just like the war on terrorism will never be won by the US or any country efforting to accomplish this for one simple reason; Idealogy. People around the world crave drugs to feed their habit, just like terrorism is fed to radical individuals/groups/societies around the world. Their are to many individuals in governments around the world profitting by the drug and terrorism that proliferates the world today. Companies that supply arms, equipment, aircraft, ect. to governments keep people employed by manufacturing these commodities. You wipe out terrorism you wipe out industry and lives for many Americans and it's allies. Drugs are a multi billion dollar industry around the world and again their are to many indivduals in governments and private that economically profit from this "industry".
I'd have no problem with legalizing all drugs providing that no government assistance (welfare, social security disability assistance, food stamps, etc) be given to anyone using the previously illegal drugs. It makes no sense to fund someone's drug usage with tax payer dollars (something we currently do).
Dear Obama, a failed experiment:
Even if the gov gave everyone welfare and all the other things you are against, it would still be cheaper than the war on drugs. Saver too.
Food Stamps are being accepted at fast food restaurants now in Arizona, California, Michigan, and Florida.
What we need is our soldiers from the Middle East to come home and have them stationed along America's southern boarders. Orders are, shoot to kill anything trying to cross it. You will see, within a month, a considerable reduction of even trying to cross the boarders and pretty soon nobody will.
Now, that is how to use our Military and the tax payer money for them. I consider the threat from the south an appropriate catalyst to start some serious arss kicking. That is what my Military is for, not for those sand diggers in the Middle East. F.ck Mexico and its arsshole president and the bunch of jerk offs that call themselves Federal Police, or whatever.
I'm with "a failed experiment," above. However, I have a few things I want since I don't imbibe drugs.
I want to be considered for any job BEFORE anyone who test positive for drugs. I want to be paid better, because my senses are not slowed, numbed, or in another galaxy (far, far away.) I want bonuses for my good work ethic, timeliness, attention, attention to detail, (and never saying, "Hey, Duuuddde.") I want cheap car insurance because I don't speed, have wrecks, fender benders, or violate any other driving laws because I'm under the influence. I want scholarships (or free education) to the school of my choice, because I will study hard and pay attention in class without the benefit of drug perks (and I'll take my own SATs.) If I want a home loan, since I have the better job and education for my lack of drug use, I want it to be very low interest or even interest free. I'm a safe bet and will not to blowing my funds on something that will be going up in smoke followed by a plate full of brownies. I'm sure other can add to this starter list, but it's a beginning.
Yes, legalize drugs. I'm all for it. But I want the perks of not being a doper, too. After all, we all need something to reward our constructive, positive behavior. Dopers can have their highs, and we, the drug free, can have everything else that's real, good, constructive, and profitable.
hey zapper - what are the perks for not being an alcoholic
Israel is about the size of Rhode Island moron. They have a very small border area to control. You really need to go back to school because most of the tripe that you're tossing out here has been tried. Right now we spend billions, that's right, billions, to lock up people for smoking pot. We do that so companies like Northrop, Boeing and others can continue to bilk the public out of their money in their "war on drugs" which is actually a war on the US treasury. They make billions on the guns, chemicals, helicopters, small planes, etc. that they use in our name to save us from the horrid marijuana leaf.
Might just be the dumbest comment of all. Every nation wants to give up its sovereignty so another one can pursue its citizens in to their own country. That politician, no matter his nationality, would not last very long.
Go back to Fox and give Rush his check back, you're not very good at disinformation, deception, or diversion.
Why should you be considered before anyone? If you truely are "better", then you will be selected for the job. Thats a pretty simple concept. If a stoner is better at a job than you, then you dont get the job.
If your doing the same work, you get paid the same. Nothing changes just because the other guy is in a better mood than you. I know alot of stoners that do landscaping, and they work their butts off. Probably work harder than you!
The perk of not being a doper, is that your not a doper. There are no other perks. Millions of people go to work with medical conditions that allow them to use pain killers. Do they get docked in pay as well?
Thats funny, because I know a construction guy that runs his own business and guess what, he smoke pot!! Hes been in business for almost 30 years. Id love to see you tell him that you deserve to get paid more than one of his long time employees because "your not a doper".
There are tens of millions of Americans that go on with their daily lives even though they smoke pot. I can almost gurantee that you work with a few, even if your company drug tests. Most are as beneficial to society as anyone on this vine. They own businesses and become doctors, lawyers, engineers, teachers and most any other profession you can think of. Even President of the United States. 30% of our Presidents have admittedly smoked marijuana, heres a list:
George Washington; Thomas Jefferson; James Madison; James Monroe; Andrew Jackson; Zachary Taylor; Franklin Pierce; Abraham Lincoln; John F. Kennedy; Jimmy Carter; George W. Bush; Bill Clinton; Barrack Obama
zapper45701 - i know plenty of people who aren't "dopers" who aren't good drivers, don't function in work places, don't have skills, are unambitious, etc. Your argument has no basis in logic because people from both sides of the line fall into every category you have stated only "non dopers" would be appropriate for. You have basically categorized every person who uses an illegal drug to be irresponsible and worthless. This is hardly the case. Do you drink? Smoke cigarettes? Both are harmful substances that are completely legal, taxed, and controlled in the U.S. Forgive me, but are YOU in another galaxy (far, far, away).
thenewstoday - really? you want to chase them into Mexico? That's safe (sarcasm). We would basically be fighting the war in Afghanistan here in our own backyards. The drug cartels are well armed, and have an army already here in our neighborhood, indoctrinating our youth. Really the only way to stop this mess is to take a different approach. The definition of insanity is to try the same thing multiple times and expect a different result, hence why this war is insane. We have tried the same approach to the war on drugs and it has never worked, how about we try something else for a change?
Sorry, every doper I know is a burned-out dope. Of course, a few slip through, but I'm better than someone who has their senses mired in something other than reality. That's the way it is. Yes, I'm much better. Why, because I don't NEED something that hazes over everyday living. I don't need that kind of "enhancement." Being a purist has its perks. I have asked for a raise and gotten it, because I was a good, honest worker, who showed up on time and wasn't an embarrassment (doper) to the company. Hard work? Don't even go there--you have no idea.
Actually, I would say most people have tried a toke. That doesn't mean they were everyday users who needed it to get through the day. Actually, most people (and they are the vast majority) I associate with find marijuana to be a very nasty, stinky substance. You can have what you want. Legalize it, I'll still be much better off than users, because I don't need it or require to enhance my life. My life is pretty darned wonderful as it is. Why would I want my senses enshrouded in a cloud of worthless smoke?
Also, if my doctor, lawyer, carpenter, plumber, whoever is using, and I find out, I will fire them. I pay for professionalism, and I expect it. I've fired a doctor for using his own prescription book. I don't care that he is a "doctor," he wasn't able to do his job when he was high--(like read an x-ray! When I can clearly see the broken bone, and he missed it, there's a problem. He was wasted and a disgrace.)
Yes, millions of people use prescription medications. They are legal and are monitored. No problem with that at all.
The constant making of excuses for drug use is just what druggies do. Go ahead, use them. I, and the other non-users, will profit by the drug-culture foolishness.
One last thing: Your. It's either you are (you're) or your (possessive). I already have my college education, but that's something I learned in the second grade. We all make grammatical/typing errors, but that's one that can be easily fixed. (I know, I know, grammar police; it's just a pet peeve about proofreading.)
SmallTownPete -
Not to mention that I, personally, have yet to meet a straight-edger (sXe) that I could not beat, hands down, in most categories of academia (not to say they aren't out there, but I haven't met them). Most of them, in my experience, reserve all their excitement and attention for being straight-edge and whining to you about the poisons you ingest. Give my someone who is actually interested in the thing they are working on any day of the week, rather than those weak-kneed morons who come off with the holier-than-thou attitude about how much better than you they are since they don't drink or light up a joint. They just assume they are better because they've been told all their lives that they would be, and haven't bothered to actually do the work.
dont pull a muscle panting yourself on the back
This is hilarious, you sitting there saying YOUR better than others. By the way, its faster just to type "your" Mr.Grammar Police, I have my college education also, and I did my penance while writing 30 page papers. This is an online post and I really dont care to be 100% grammatically correct, plus you understand what im saying so my point is getting across.
Your absolutely right that not everyone is an everyday user. Im sure that my buddy doesnt go toke up right before hes about to excavate a drainage ditch or dig out someones basement. But when he goes home to relax and has a joint, how does that, in your mind, make him someone that "needs it to get through theday"? Also, Im glad your life is wonderful, thats great. And a big thanks for being on the side of legalization, albeit with a demeaning attitude(thats not appreciated by the way).
More power to you!! Thats your choice as a patient/customer. May I suggest that you wait and see the quality of work they provide before you fire them though? Many pot smokers with a focused profession are usually very good at their craft.
This is my first big beef and what I consider a double standard. Especially when "prescription" drugs can have more of a mind/mood altering affect than marijuana. So YOUR okay with a lady taking oxy because its prescribed but that other lady smoking weed on the weekend, well she needs to be paid less because that drug "used to be illegal"? (Im going on the premise of you saying if drugs are legalized, non-users should be paid more than druggies)
So that lady who goes to the doctor, is she just making up excuses to get pain killers? People use drugs for all kinds of reasons, even prescription drugs. Among the most abused drugs in school children, marijuna is first and prescription drugs are a close second. Most studies cover from 7th-12th grade, and they all have slightly different percentages. Im just trying to demonstrate that drug users are drug users, whether is vicodin or pot. Yet for some reason, because one is legal, in your mind its better?
Janstince- Great points, I also agreed with your post above and gave you a vote up. I loved how you went and got the true prohibition numbers, even though it discredits that guys claim for legaliztion. "Truth above all else" is what my Uncle always tells me. Hes an academia nut, loves to challenge me and make me think in different ways. Your post reminded me of him. He is also one that is hard to best in just about anything, especially chess!
zapper45701 - here you go again. Perhaps you have had a negative experience with people who do drugs, and that is sad. The thing is, you once again categorize every person who uses into these categories that you (being apparently holier than thou) would never fall into.
Yes, every person who smokes weed or does a drug falls into every one of those categories. By the way, they have a word for people like you, it's called discriminatory. That's actually against the nature of our country. So perhaps you don't belong here. Maybe you should move to the moon so you can be the most perfect person you see, and you will come to see that you are a very lonely person on the moon all by yourself, and us "dopers" are quite content to live without you or your negative vibrations duuuuude.
Jesus, I don't say "dude" in my normal life. It makes me furious you would dumb me down to a scooby doo type of character because i smoke pot.
Zapper 45701 is spot on. I see two major categories of "legalizers" in the comments here. First, are the folks who want it legalized so they can get it cheaper. Second are the wimps who don't like a fight and are afraid. Why don't the folks who need it everyday just admit they can't handle life's common everyday issues - that's why they became dependent. They are no diofferent than alcoholics, and we don't usually let substance abusers make the rules. IF you are one of these, you can sit down and be quiet because you already demonstrate you can't handle real issues and challenges. Therefore you have no standing telling others how things should be. IF you are not a regular user you have to realise your costs and troubles are compounded by the people around you who are regular users and you should want it stopped. I see these law officers in these videos as inspiring, loyal and hard working people who are not going through life being afraid. Build the danged fence ! Put Helos and drones above, shoot the people in the "no-man's land" and for the love of God never apologize to the Mexicans for rough handling their criminals caught on the border. Bring the troops home and put a few of em in the bushes and let the smugglers guess where. The idea that the Mexicans are OK with armed gangs on their side shooting at our Helocopters on our side means the border is open for whoever can take it. I bet we can can take it. We have plenty of loyal young men who won't mind a little duty securing the border. Gun hunters take to the wods in real nasty weather and at great expense just for the fun of hunting. Pay those same types to scout and locate the smuggling runs and your average bubba will give you all you need to secure the borders. The ranchers will be grateful too. They are tired of the damage to their lands and the threats of the smugglers. More than a few have been shot at and mudered. We need to show some loyalty to these Americans. And it should be too bad for anyone who interferes .
I understand the idea of defying laws one deems unjust or unfair. And in that context, I understand people who say marijuana should be legalized. What I don't understand is people who know the pot their buying comes from these drug cartels, and know the violence and damage the cartels inflict on people, and still buy their pot!
You think it should be legalized? Fine, work to educate people on the merits of your argument. But don't blame a failing American policy for the actions of the drug cartels. The cartels are ruthless dogs. Anyone who continues to buy a product that just encourages the cartels to escalate their behavior has no ethical concerns for their fellow man.
There are some jobs you do better, straight.
There are some jobs you do better, stoned.
There are no jobs you do better, drunk.
No, wait, that's me....Be American, Buy American...support your local grower.
Can you drive better stoned ? Statistics are showing otherwise. Many fatal accidents have been caused by drivers under the influence of marijuana.
Who says anyone that does not smoke pot is a drunk ?
Where exactly did you come up with that theory ?
How would you feel if your mother and father were getting on a 747, and you just saw the pilot smoking a large blunt in the parking lot ?
Do you think they can fly better ?
Some people can do certain jobs better when stoned, like musicians, artists, ad men, and anything that demands creativity. Most peoples jobs require much more than that, and then the costs to society begin to ring up, including loss of life(s).
"Sometimes, the traffickers are so brazen they will make obscene hand gestures toward U.S. agents watching from across the river" - I found this funny! Boy, are they brazen with those hand gestures, the AK's and sidearms are really just play, but those gestures are deadly!!
Sir, I shot and killed a truckload of smugglers. Were you fired upon first? No, sir, I was flipped the bird. Carry on, solider, carry on.
Perhaps the Border Patrol should use the AC-130 rather than helicopters? There is no point in pussy-footing around with these heavily armed traffickers; just put them out of business, permanently.
http://mobi-wall.brothersoft.com/files/480320/a/12816187416325.jpg
Nope, political correctness is our problem. We should shoot to kill from the air at any and all drug smuggling operations happening in the river i.e. neutral territory. However our American sensibilities could not put up with seeing the Rio Grande flow red.
Why not? Red is in the color of our flag and the Mexican flag. Makes perfect patriotic sense on both sides to me.
Because as soon as an officer fires on these undocumented democrats they cease to become armed smugglers and become innocent hard workers just trying to feed their families by coming to the U.S., thats our lib media in action.
Agree with you. We keep pussyfooting around with them, catch them, release them and it's just a vicious circle. The rule should be anyone caught with a weapon is fair game to shoot. No yelling halt, stop and anything else. Maybe is we placed a few land mines along the banks of the river they would get the message.
Perhaps change out their current helicopters with the Bell AH-1 SuperCobra. That would get the attention of the smugglers
The only thing I can see is that the border patrols are using the wrong helicopters. Apache gun ships would be a better choice flown by MEN or WOMEN that know how to use them!
Do you think that the only place drugs are smuggled into the US is over the Rio Grande? It's flown in. It comes through tunnels. It comes packed in cars. It's grown here. Most of the time the people you want to shoot no one ever sees. The more of these guys we kill the higher the price goes the more profit and the more people will do to earn that profit.
Zapper 45701 - You claim to be a college graduate. Sue them. You were ripped off.
Do you think that the only place drugs are smuggled into the US is over the Rio Grande? It's flown in. It comes through tunnels. It comes packed in cars. It's grown here. Most of the time the people you want to shoot no one ever sees. The more of these guys we kill the higher the price goes the more profit and the more people will do to earn that profit.
Zapper 45701 - You claim to be a college graduate. Sue them. You were ripped off.
x
Darrell-1928840
I agree !!! X
I couldn't tell if the guy from W&M was talking about Mexico or the US when he was speaking about elections and politicians living in a cocoon. If I am not mistaken we are bringing home lots of US military personnel that will most likely need a job, correct? Why not let them patrol our borders, wait not patrol, but man our borders, armed, ready and willing to make a freakin' stand and stop letting these cartel members come in our country and do what ever the hell the please. The guys in the helicopters should had unloaded a reign of hell on these fools stuck in the river, maybe the time has come that we use some of these folks as a guinea pigs!!!
Do you really think if we had military so close they could hold hands, that would stop the drugs coming into the US or the guns going into Mexico? You would need over 350,000 per shift times four shifts per day just to cover Texas alone.
Far easier way, just stop this war and start growing our own.
Once again that damn Constitution and the laws of our country get in the way. Positioning military on any border is an act of war, plain and simple. All you nuke-em-nickies might want to find out just what the end result is when you decide on a course of action. The Border Patrol has the job of the borders and we need to release all the hamstrings that Dubya put on them and let them actually do their job. They have the ability if they are not hindered.
And why are these not Cobra gunships? When the load and carriers hit the US side, targets of opportunity. This problem has got to be stopped, and our community organizer in cheif has no desire to do it. The smugglers are criminals and a direct threat to US citizens.
because the Texas Dept of Public Safety doesn't own Cobras, you nitwit. And PMSNBCs beloved emperor refuses to use federal forces to patrol the border. It's easier for him to sell guns to the drug runners
They are no threat and Obama doesn't go after them hard because the vast majority of the US populous wants to just legalize it and move on. Have you ever read a poll that you could comprehend? If so you would understand that most people here are over the never ending, and un-winable War on Drugs. On the other hand, Republicans like un-winable wars and would likely enjoy seeing this thing continue indefinitely as some good conservative CEO is likely making a mint selling guns and helicopters to fight it.
SJM-1767118 - isnt the border patrol a federal force? Maybe that's run by each state. Also, the "PMSNBCs beloved emperor" doesn't employ the army to patrol the border because that would be a huge waste in spending. If we were going to employ the army to do anything, why not use them to root our gang activity in every American city? Why not use them to pull over speeding cars on every highway? Why not just use them to patrol our streets and do things they aren't mandated to do?
OR
Rather than wasting more money, time, and resources on a battle that can't possibly be won, we take a new approach and possibly see what the legalize route would lead to. I'm sure, based off of social models that have been successful, there is a way to combat this in a benficial way which doesn't lead to a lot of people's lives being ruined because a small group doesn't want substances to be legalized.
I think we ought to kick Mexicos butt.
We should move our border 1,000 south. Then we should evict every illegal alien in the United States with a warning that any deported alien that ever invades our country a 2nd time will be summarily executed.
But.....how can this be true?????????......Janet and Barack tell us constantly how much safer our Mexican border has gotten under their leadership and control.
That would be Rick Perry, the guy who’s giving illegals in-state college tuition. Ricky boy’s in the pocket of moneyed men, those that need cheap illegal alien labor to work in their sweat shops. American businesses that hire illegal aliens ARE the problem.
And if Ricky boy tried to do anything about it Aus10, Obama boy would sue him.
good point Aus10........so who's pocket is Janet and Obama in????????? What is their motivation to let illegal activity go rampant> What benefit do they get by letting this problem go unchecked with little publicity? Not closing the border and enforcing current Federal Immigration Laws is the problem.
Aus10- yeah thats been proven in alabama, they kicked out all the illegals and now the crops are going to waste because the legal citizens dont want to give up their obamabucks and do real work.
Sorry Raychel, but if you guys don't like getting sued, try writing laws that don't violate the US Constitution.
It is way past time to secure our boarder, what is it going to take, instead of a ton of pot it is a ton of high explosive next time, used on a soft target, then will something be done.
Until the people of this great nation stand up and demand that our southern boarder be secured it will continue to be as porous as it is right now, we have to demand that all politicians currently running for office guarantee that they will really secure our boarder once and for all. BUILD THE DAMN FENCE ALREADY. Only vote for candidates that will secure our boarder regardless of which party they are from.
"Smugglers' Alley should be renamed SNIPERS ALLEY, a half mile wide swath of land to be used to train our special forces, Apache helicopter crews, and armored division gunner crews, that should slow the trafficking down. Why does the coast guard rescue the crews of these smuggling subs when they sink their subs to keep from getting caught, LET THEM SWIM HOME.
Pakistan wants our drone bases out of their country, fine put them in southern Texas and rain a little hellfire down on these chuckle heads.
Sniper's Alley? Do you think that our side of the border is uninhabited? People live there...American citizens, even!
I agree that we need to put the hammer down on smuggling in South Texas, but your suggestion is just ignorant. I would rather turn those Apaches loose on drug consumers...rain a little hellfire down on those pot heads! If you use illegal drugs, you are contributing to murder in Mexico and the U.S.
STFU. You sound like a joke with that statement. You probably feel law enforcement should go after Johns instead of the pimps and whores because the john is the consumer. Until you can clearly show that you do not partake in any substances that cause your mood to be altered, weed, alcohol, cigarettes, Prescription drugs, etcc.. Do not make blanket statements about pot smokers. whether you want to believe it or not, many, many highly accomplished and intelligent people use it. It has clearly been shown that the fear mongering placed upon marijuana use was a tool of the government to indoctrinate the people into thinking it was evil. Fact: African americans were known to use it in the 30's and 40's and the American racist dogma vilified its use as well as its users. Stop believing what your pastor and your overly zealous drug counselors are telling you. Pot is not addictive and is not a gateway drug. It is however, due to our countries government and corporate greed, a much needed source of tax revenue.
If you support the war on drugs then you are the one with the blood on your hands.
It is because of the war on drugs we have all of the violence and death associated with illegal drug trafficking. Haven't we learned from the mistakes of Prohibition of the 20s and 30s?
It's not the drugs that are causing the violence...it is Prohibition. It is the laws that need to be changed. End the drug war and decriminalize all drugs and legalize marijuana and tax and regulate it like alcohol.
If we perpetuate this war on drugs we will waste more billions of dollars on a lost cause and will surely result in more loss of life.
End the insanity! End the drug war!
I grow my own..supporting small business by purchasing my nutrients at the local grow shop, paying for my grow license, and keeping money out of the cartels hands. If you want to assign blame look no further than the correctional officers unions who oppose legalizing marijuana as it would reduce their "client base". Blame all the fire-arms distributors who allow straw buyers to purchase the firearms and re-sell them to shady individuals who export them to Mexico. I am for the 2nd amendment and am a proud gun owner/recreational shooter, but just like buying a car you should have to be held accountable for your firearm transactions. And by all means employ our returning troops by having them patrol the border with strict oversight making sure the troops are not vulnerable to corruption
part of the solution
Those "straw buyers" were used by OUR BATFE. Haven't you heard of FAST AND FURIOUS???
George Grayson, a professor at William and Mary is quoted as saying 'There are limits to what the US can do', I beg to differ, extremely differ, if we can travel half way around the world and invade countries, then why in the hell can we not shoot drug traffickers that are on AMERICAN soil (or in the water)!!?? I believe we can do a lot more than we are.
1. Legalization of some form
2. Shoot to kill (illegals and traffickers/smugglers)
3. Arm our border with military might!
4. Build that freakin fence (HA-HA)!!
Thats just a few things I can think of off the top of my head!
I believe the government is purposefully leaving this corridor open, I have one word,
MILITIA
if nobody saw it it didnt happen right, who is going to corroborate the account of an illegal drug trafficer whining that their compadres got gunned down by a bunch of rednecks with m16s :0)
Shooting illegals is stupid, border crossing is not a capital offense. Shooting cartel members smuggling drugs, however, I'm more open too. If they have a weapon brandished at a member of the armed forces... I kinda of assumed that there would be some hot metal retaliation.
How about a bounty for every illegal criminal alien that gets turned into the police?
Kulafarmer.......Eric Holder thats who..........the POS. He has already put at least one border guard in jail because Holders people took the word of the illegal trafficker over the border guards present. Even gave the guy immunity to be a witness against our own Border Patrol. Get rid of Obama and Holder first.....
1Hiram, that incident you're talking about happened many years ago under President Bush.
Random , It was Holder and Oblamea, Quit blaming Bush for every thing.
The Housing market ,Bush did it, NO the demo crates ,with Barney Franks, and the BLACK CAUCUS, did it,
The Banking Market, Bush did it , NO Chris Dodd and his cronies did it.
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, Bush did it, NO The Democrats are still ROBBING IT, Frank Raines, Millions of Dollars in Bonuses .
You people are always Knocking FOX NEWS, BUt if you would stop listening to MSNBC you would Learn somethimg.
When I turn them on they are still talking about Herman Cain, He's History.
Talk about the things the AZZ HOLE in the Whitehouse isn't doing to get the Economy going.
The incident was in 2006, buckieboy. The names of the border patrol agents were Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean. They were sentenced to 12 years in 2007. Bush pardoned them as he left office in 2009.
See, I have facts on my side. I don't have to resort to name-calling to make a point.
YOU DO NOT HAVE THE FACTS ON YOUR SIDE
Wrong Random B........This is a different occurrence.....Jesus Diaz was sentenced to 2 years by the Obama Admin and Eric Holder. The arrest in question occurred in October 2008 and the charges were brought after Holder took office. He is currently serving his sentence. You are correct in stating that George Bush pardoned 2 guards that were sentenced. Obama could do the same
Those things all happend under Bush's watch as Pres, did they not? They were all things to do with the economy, yet you dont blame the President at the time for what happend?
So let me get this straight. You dont blame Bush, a.k.a the AZZ HOLE in the Whitehouse, for things that happend to the economy while he was President. But you blame the current situation of the economy on the current President?!?!? Are you seriously trying to make your point sound logical?
Do some research on Fannie and Freddie fron 1995 to 2008 and you may have a different attitude. At worst a better ubnderstanding of how a run away program fueled the crisis..........
I agree with the blame.......ultimately Bush could have stepped in and ordered an audit of the two agencies. He didn't, he believed barney Frank, Maxine Waters and Franklin Raines. It happened under his watch and as President he should face the fault.
In regards to our present debt and unemployment problems.......they rest solely on the shoulders of those in power the last three years. Obama. The first President since WWII to have negative job growth over a 4 year term. He has added to the deficit in 3 years what Bush added in 8 years. No Federal Budget has been passed since he took office. His assault on fossil fuels is costing us countless jobs andbillions of $$$ in lost revenues. This economy is completly his fault.
If Bush had done as bad a job as Obama has done his first 4 years ......he would not have been re-elected for a 2nd term.
The southern border is a war zone that is more of a threat to the U.S.
than anything in the towel top countries.
I'm ready to go and set up a sniper position,little practice never hurts! lmao!! damn i gotta stay off the meds so early! i took a oath too defend this country to the last breath i have,i will never retreat. if the government can not protect this country then its time for all us up standing citizens to help!
And it is very naive to think that only South and Central Americans are illegally crossing our southern border........Cartels and Coyotes will take anybodies money.
as soon as they step foot on us soil shoot the scum and make sure they dont get up
If any other country was invading Amerika like mexico is, we would declare war.
I dont know what the problem is, just mobilize and use deadly force, on the us side why dont they just use gun ships, they can easily trash these jerks, we have more than enough manpower to have a constant presence, drones, men on the ground, helecopters, never mind this well arrest them and deport then, just start taking them out, that will stop the flow, right now its like a game, they run back to the border, if they dont make it back, then there is one less donkey to carry drugs.
........we can not do what is good for OUR country for fear of pissing offf the Hispanic vote.
i got one word for those whom seem to get pissed when true american citizens born here want there country back from the illegals f@@@ off. now if you are an illegal and i do not care how many years you have been here,you need to deported now!
Marine55:
Well, when ICE's definition of illegal is incarcerating legal american ciizens, then its time that we stop using their definition of 'illegal.'
Rennison Castillo, a Washington state man who was born in Belize but took his oath of citizenship while serving in the U.S. Army in 1998, spent seven months in an ICE prison in 2006. Castillo, 33, of Lakewood, came to the United States at age 6 and later became a permanent lawful resident. He was sworn in as a citizen during his seven-year stint in the Army, which ended with his honorable discharge in 2003.
Lack of proper training of immigration inspectors resulted in their mistaken conclusion that Sharon McKnight’s passport was fraudulent. McKnight spent eight days in Jamaica before returning to New York. While there, her luggage, containing all her money, was stolen. Airport workers contributed money so she could reach family members. Once there, her mother flew to Jamaica from New York to take her case to the US consulate in Kingston. With the help of Rep. Michael Forbes (D-NY), consulate officials determined that the passport and birth certificate, which immigration officials had declared fraudulent, were in fact real, and established McKnight’s US citizenship.
When Angela Boneva, a 34 year old went to renew her passport in 2003, the State Department told her she was no longer a citizen. Boneva's father was born in Indiana, and the US consulate in Bulgaria gave her U.S. citizenship while she was growing up in Bulgaria in 1981.The State Department said that an employee at the consulate broke a rule that required her father to have lived in the U.S. for 10 years before she was born, the Tribune reported. Her father had only lived in the U.S. for six years before moving to Bulgaria.
The son of a decorated Vietnam veteran, Hector Veloz is a U.S. citizen, but in 2007 immigration officials mistook him for an illegal immigrant and locked him in an Arizona prison for 13 months. Veloz had to prove his citizenship from behind bars. An aunt helped him track down his father's birth certificate and his own, his parents' marriage certificate, his father's school, military and Social Security records. After nine months, a judge determined that he was a citizen, but immigration authorities appealed the decision. He was detained for five more months before he found legal help and a judge ordered his case dropped.
Mr. Ibarra, 46, was born in Mexico but was raised since infancy in Arizona. In his late 20s he enlisted in the Marines and served three years on active duty, including time in Iraq, before being honorably discharged. On February 23, 2011 Department of Justice adjudicator Richard Phelps ruled in Eloy, Arizona that George Ibarra had by a preponderance of the evidence proven that he is indeed a citizen of the United States. Rather than apologize to Mr. Ibarra for previously wrongfully detaining him, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is holding Mr. Ibarra in solitary confinement at the Eloy Detention Center, in clear violation of the U.S. Constitution and a memorandum requiring Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) to release anyone with "probative evidence" of U.S. citizenship.
Shut down all firing ranges on all US Army bases in the United States. Move them to the Rio Grande. Advantages:
1: Never have to buy another target, drug smugglers will provide an unlimited variety of moving targets.
2: Never have to clean up after a live fire exercise, the river will take care of that.
3: Provide security on the US side of the border.
Notifying the Mexican officials for the level of corruption in its ranks, is just telling the cartels you need to find a new place to cross.
Or just arm up the helicopters with air to ground missiles, a good general electric chain fed gattling gun and intstructions don't come home with any leftover ammo. We'll make more.
Not a bad idea the bodies that fall on land would become buzzard bait and not have to be cleaned up. It would be good training for all branches of our Armed Forces including National Guard and Reserve.
and what of those who are children and are likewise abused in the USA by Law Enforcement Officials? Illinois Governor Pat Quinn, nor Illinois Attorney GeneraL Lisa Madigan have the slightest concern over their rouge cops.
What about law enforcement gangs of deviant perverted police. Andrew Schroeder badge # 6969 of the Illinois State Police, Freeport, Stephenson County. This guy was caught in August of 2007, buy my then 9 year old daughter with a pair of her soiled panties during one of his famous drug raids. Was he sniffing for drugs? Keep the drug war on going so people like this can continue getting away with being legal perverts! Stop the Drug war and put people like Andrew Schroeder #6969 of the Illinois State Police, Freeport, Stephenson County, in a cage where he belongs! Stop the war on little girls soiled panties! Stop the killings! Stop the drug war!
Ok...
Honestly, I'm someone who doesn't believe in closing down the border, doesn't believe in kicking out all the Mexicans out of the US, married a beautiful Mexican woman, lived in Mexico for years... however... it was Lt. Prince right... do they have guns on those helicopters? I hate the cartels... let the airforce take em out if they catch them coming across!
Number of Texas Troopers on the border. 14
Number of Texas Troopers killed patrolling the border. 0
Are you upset none have been killed, or are using that stat for some other reason?
If you want to talk to some folks that know what the score is, talk to some journeyman Border Patrol Agents.
More presents from our esteemed "ally" to the south. Thanks for cuddling up to them with your one sided trade agreements Mr. OBummer. Just the kind of leadership we need. At this point, the least we can do is give the gunship crews from San Anton a little target practice ... Ooops, there I go again, being politically incorrect. Can't act like a real country, it might offend someone.
Yeah, like Goober Bush secured the border after 911. Bush removed regulations on automatic weapons. Dealers started selling guns in Mexico. Now smugglers w/their guns are coming back across the border and they are complaining. The immagration and drug problem has been going on for genarations but YOU want to blame the Pres. Obama. Wake up and stop sniffing Rush's a s s.
why waste time/money chasing them...especially on USA soil.when there spotted the helo should be an attack helo and should stop them right there and then.might sound cruel but look at the misery they cause to our dope heads and all the innocent USA population..
The President's first and foremost job is to defend our territory and citizens. Wether, the foe be a country or an organization. If we can make Al Queda an offical foe and go after its members in other countries (Pakistan) then we can go after the drug gang leaders. "There is only so-much we can do" is a lie.
...........Only so much we can do..........without pissing off the Hispanic voting block......is what he is really saying.
The Cartels, provide jobs for most of those Hispanic voters. They provide jobs to their children. Who do you think is gonna turn them in? The farmers should sell their land for top dollar to the cartels, prime real estate. Then relocate to nicer place.
These pilots are up against some real desperadoes. Slingshots and rude gestures. What will they do next? Moon the border patrol.
Skimmed over the AK-47 reference, did you?
Hey kenny, I'm OK with mooning but if they start doing the "Crotch Grab Suck It Gestures" then they are going way over the border, I mean line!
Both Democrats and Republicans have failed us all by not taking border crossings from Mexico seriously.
We were at war with Mexico. They lost, and are angry, and invading.
Canada has become a good neighbor and friend. Mexico has not.
Legalizing pot will only increase the flow of more dangerous drugs into the United States and is not a solution to this problem.
PRESERVE OUR NATIONAL IDENTITY AND CLOSE THE BORDER.
Not bad, then we could involve all branches of our military, including the National Guard and Reserve. Bodies that fall on land would become buzzard bait and would require no clean up either.